02;19;56;06 – 02;20;12;20
Wendell
We are very privileged today to have Pastor John Nunnally from Legacy Christian Fellowship, who is going to talk to us today about the value of men in the church. That’s a heavy topic. Welcome, John. Glad you’re here.

02;20;12;23 – 02;20;13;05
John
Thank you Very much.

02;20;13;29 – 02;20;18;04
Wendell
and you all know my co-host, Dale Eudy. Dale, welcome.

02;20;18;14 – 02;20;25;06
Dale
Great to be with you, Wendell. And looking forward to hearing John’s heart. It’s wonderful, Pastor, that we’ve got with us today.

02;20;25;28 – 02;20;38;22
Wendell
Amen. John, talk to us about this, a snippet of your history, how long you’ve been a legacy what things were like, where you came from, a men’s perspective, et cetera.

02;20;39;29 – 02;21;06;15
John
Great. I have been a legacy for ten years. Now, and it was an existing fellowship with a great pastor, another founding pastor who took over an old church of mine. And so it kind of was all in the same family. And I had been a worship leader at a church in Littleton for about ten years. And then they sent me out a plan to the church in Golden.

02;21;06;29 – 02;21;41;06
John
And then a couple of years into that church plan handed that off to the assistant pastor and took over that legacy. And it was a sweet fellowship that was a generation, generationally, a little bit older. And I came in at the time as a young guy and with that brought a dynamic change. And that another generation came in with me And so the church became more vibrant and just having lots of little kids running around.

02;21;41;06 – 02;22;12;12
John
And so I think the shift in men was from men in their later years, focusing on ministry in the later years to church as a whole, being more intergenerational with a lot more younger, younger guys, but also younger dads. And so the men of the church kind of instantly became the granddads of the church. To share their their wisdom, their experience with the dads and the young men.

02;22;12;27 – 02;22;34;23
John
And so like I said, it became almost overnight within I kid you not into two to three weeks became very intergenerational, whereas it it was the median age and average age is probably somewhere around 60. And then I came on and it was somewhere in the thirties of within about two to three weeks.

02;22;35;14 – 02;22;53;09
Wendell
That’s a big shift. So what what is that’s a great story. Thank you for sharing that. What’s your intentional process with men? I know you value them, but first of all, was that mean made? Secondly, do you have an intentional process? You work with your men or.

02;22;54;03 – 02;23;27;00
John
I do. And it stems from my heart of discipleship. Some churches are very good sending churches. Some churches are very good evangelistic churches. Our focus is discipleship. So we want to work with people over time. In life, through Christ, and specifically with men. And it has become our calling card I guess, for men’s ministry. We call it Advance Advance Men’s Ministry.

02;23;27;03 – 02;24;04;21
John
And that is because we are advancing the gospel in godly manhood. That’s the vision for a men’s ministry. And so everything we try to do is where we’re celebrating manhood, but not not as the world defines manhood and manliness, we recognize that the greatest man, the most manly man to ever walk the Earth was Jesus Christ. And so if we are taking our notes on manhood from somebody other than Jesus, we’re probably going to see things more of the flesh and of the spirit.

02;24;04;21 – 02;24;34;11
John
And I love manly things as I define it. I’m an outdoorsman I love to hunt and fish and hike. And but I also like to read and play music and study language. And so what we want our men to be able to do is to be more like Jesus, but to celebrate how he’s made us. But then how God uses those things to advance His Kingdom and advance the Gospel of Christ.

02;24;36;08 – 02;24;57;11
Wendell
For quite a long process. I don’t want to technical here, but a quick question on process. If a guy walks into your church, becomes a part of your church where do you how do you take him from a to whatever or wherever you start to where you try to move him into leadership or service, or do you have a process of future working through?

02;24;58;05 – 02;25;31;20
John
We do, and it’s probably not evident that there is a process going on It is. It would probably appear very organic. Now, that presents a bunch of problems in and of itself. But it is build relationship get to know them, get to know them as men, get to know him and what’s going on in their life. Find out who they are, what they’re all about, what they’ve been through, what they like, what they don’t like, and just get them somehow, some way.

02;25;31;27 – 02;25;56;28
John
And we have various ways to do that. Just get them engaged with as many men as possible so that they they don’t come in as lone rangers and stay that way because it’s desirable that it was impossible for the Lone Ranger mentality. John Wayne would have never been a great disciple. You know, a cool guy and all, but not super useful in the kingdom.

02;25;57;29 – 02;26;26;00
John
So this we do we have we structure our ministry to go a little bit deeper and then pull back a little slower and then a little deeper to where, you know, we’re getting together. So every quarter we have some element of a gathering. So like a breakfast with a devotional, we’ll have a sign and fellowship time. Then we’ll have a service project so men can always be serving together.

02;26;26;07 – 02;27;10;01
John
And as we’re building those relationships, we are funneling them toward our men’s Bible studies, our discipleship classes, the community groups. And so we want to you know, get him and get to know him and then as quickly as possible, get them in the community of men on a regular basis studying the word. And then if they have leadership potential and they so that they have the maturity and want to serve, we have a fairly open leadership team and it’s fairly large I don’t recommend for most folks that they have a large leadership group because it kind of dilutes in some way the effectiveness of that group as to what can get done in a in

02;27;10;01 – 02;27;32;04
John
a meeting standpoint. But it’s an more open team that we can talk about things of the church. So they feel very invested in the goings on of the church. And then eventually they end up being able to be kind of co or or the lead on that particular ministry. So that’s a bit of the progression.

02;27;33;19 – 02;27;58;25
Wendell
Right. One of the questions we have is always how has the church continued to grow as men have continued to come forward into more of the leadership positions and you have evidence that there’s a change. Do you see it in their family? They see it in the community, see it in the workplace, see it in the church, what what do you what’s your input on that?

02;27;59;15 – 02;28;43;16
John
Yeah, I think the areas of growth that it’s funny, you can have spiritual growth that then helps numerical growth because the more men we have who are paying attention to spiritual matters, so the more spiritually minded men we have, the more people the Lord will entrust to us to shepherd. So if they’re more shepherds, they’re more capable of being separated But I’ve seen the growth in a willingness to engage, a willingness to serve one another, a willingness to be open as men, and pretty transparent about who and what we are and our inner thoughts and failures and victories.

02;28;44;17 – 02;29;21;16
John
And yeah, we’re seeing growth. It is incremental for most guys. And we have to be OK with incremental growth. Even just from a maturity and spirit to stabilize some guys. Man, it is leaps and bounds, but it’s probably because they’ve already been discipled and it just they needed the right environment to flourish. But we’re seeing growth, but it is in some cases almost painfully slow, and I’m sure it’s painfully slow in my maturity as well.

02;29;22;01 – 02;29;34;15
John
So we have to be willing to acknowledge that from what I’ve seen Men’s spiritual maturity seems to be at a slower rate than our female counterparts.

02;29;35;07 – 02;30;01;23
Dale
You know, that’s a key point, Pastor. The I guess the the way that people gather those transformational indicators and how do they measure growth and everything else? Like you said, sometimes it can be painfully slow and you want things to, you know, the pace to quicken up a little bit more. What would be your encouragement again? If you keep doing the right things and gaining traction, there ultimately is the goal or the hope that it’ll pay off.

02;30;01;24 – 02;30;05;25
Dale
You’ll get some you’ll get some movement yes.

02;30;06;07 – 02;30;38;23
John
And ultimately, what we want as men is to be usable in the kingdom And so as we mature, then we are more trusted, if you will, by the Lord, because we want to be faithful over a few things. And so for faithful, over few things will be more trustworthy, but with greater things later. And so I think there’s marks of maturity are going to be are we more usable which usually comes of being more humble in addition to being teachable and trained and all of that other stuff.

02;30;38;23 – 02;31;06;02
John
So I think that’s I think you’re you’re dead on to say, you know, are we willing to be patient in that growth? What are we willing to see? And for me, the evidence of maturity is usability and even fungibility in the kingdom. Well, will the Lord completely break us remake us and regain, reuse or recycle us for something else?

02;31;06;24 – 02;31;10;15
John
That, to me is a a sign of of growth, of maturity.

02;31;11;00 – 02;31;21;19
Dale
Well said. Well said. You know, Jesus said very clearly, it begins with you deny yourself, take a big cross daily and follow me. And that’s it sounds like what you’re what you’re putting into play there with your men.

02;31;23;00 – 02;31;23;21
John
Absolutely.

02;31;24;12 – 02;31;51;29
Wendell
It sounds, Pastor, that you’ve got a relational environment in your church or with your men specific way in which the patience for slow growth or painful growth is talked about, which we’ve all been there, done that is accepted as OK. On the other hand, it’s not OK to stay there. So you have to keep moving forward. Would that be but right.

02;31;52;16 – 02;32;21;22
John
Absolutely. And and that is a term set by leadership. And I, I always want us moving forward. And that’s the concept of advance we’re certainly not going to retreat. We don’t do men’s retreats. We only have advances in that. And the ladies chuckle every time we say that, but we mean it. I have for me personally in the church, I have no desire and put no effort in getting things back to some glory days.

02;32;21;22 – 02;32;49;26
John
Getting things back to the way they were, any of that mess. I only want to move forward in a part of that’s just my personality, which I have to make sure that Grace puts thegovernor the proper governance, because otherwise you just run people over. And so but if we’re moving forward and we’re always being challenged by the word, then it will be stagnation from from setting in and being willing to just change things.

02;32;50;02 – 02;33;08;16
John
I think making little changes all the time. And what we do, how we do what we present it, how we present it keeps. I think in some ways keeps that challenge of the word right in front of us. And some guys are going to wash out and say, you know, I just I don’t like always being challenged or I don’t always like to change.

02;33;08;16 – 02;33;18;03
John
I don’t always like this or that but for most guys, it’s insistent. Keep that that that pressing nature, the urgency of the gospel in the forefront.

02;33;19;27 – 02;33;43;25
Wendell
Then seem to have a I ultimately have a task orientation or want to improve or want to get better or want to excel that’s how it is in the workplace, right? You’re measured consistently in the workplace and your worth and value is based on your what have you done for me lately kind of mentality. Last saw the kingdom were accepted by by God for who we are regardless.

02;33;44;25 – 02;34;07;03
Wendell
But to say thank you and I love you a lot, you know, so grateful that you’ve given me eternal life. I want to continue to build that relationship, get to know Jesus and become more of the man he’s created me to be. We talked we talked off air before we ever started about what does it really mean to what is the value of a man in the church?

02;34;07;03 – 02;34;14;12
Wendell
Or maybe what’s the value of a man might be the even better question. But you had some thoughts on that. You might share some of those.

02;34;16;03 – 02;34;42;01
John
I’d love to. And men do want to excel. I think you’re right in the kingdom, though, and you were touching on it because we’re saved by Grace. That wipes out about 90% of what men hang their hat on. And we would love to be judged on our work, except for only the good works because, you know, forget all of this bad, all the bad stuff.

02;34;42;29 – 02;35;05;14
John
So because it’s a function of grace that we are in, right standing with God, I think a lot of men are incredibly insecure and I think insecurity is holding back. Most men in the kingdom because they’re still depending on themselves, because it’s the pride of man that is the root of our insecurity. We’re still trying to earn it.

02;35;05;14 – 02;35;27;10
John
We’re still trying to prove it. We’re not sure we measure up. So we don’t have a handle on grace, and we’re still operating in pride. And that becomes a really big problem. Now, the antidote the counter to this is that the value of men is set by the Lord. It’s not that men need to prove anything that we’re worthy of honor.

02;35;27;10 – 02;35;59;25
John
We’re worthy of respect. We have a place already set for us, a title set for us as men. And I believe that the value of men in the church is set by understanding two things that men represent Jesus in his betrothal, his marriage to the church, and that men represent the construct of spiritual authority. And those two things for instance, how Jesus loves and cares for the church.

02;36;00;02 – 02;36;23;11
John
We get to model Christ. And so that gives us great confidence that we’re modeling something that we have seen, that we have read about, that we do believe it’s just whether we’re going to to buy faith to follow his example but if we’re willing to follow his example, that frees us up to to serve, to teach, to give, to give our life.

02;36;23;11 – 02;36;47;22
John
So we have a very high calling at very high value in the church by representing the side of this model we’ve been given, which is Jesus himself in his love for the church. It’s kind of like expanding the concept of marriage, being a picture of Christ in the church. So that’s the first issue we represent Jesus and we are to do that, you know, lovingly and well.

02;36;47;22 – 02;37;01;16
John
And then the second part is just the fact that there is spiritual authority to do this. Actually great comfort because we have to because spiritual authority exists and we can see that in the Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and there’s.

02;37;01;16 – 02;37;02;04
Wendell
No.

02;37;02;19 – 02;37;27;25
John
Battle for control, there’s no battle for Bill in the Trinity, there’s no lesser value. They just have different roles. But there is submission in the Trinity, but it’s not a problem. And so because there is authority and we are under the authority of Christ and we are already proving that we enjoy being under authority in the decimal sin is a good thing and it’s there for provision and protection.

02;37;28;09 – 02;38;11;01
John
And so because we exist within that structure, then we get to set aside more and more of our carnal nature to make sure that we are in our proper place. In the submission of God, but also providing authority, loving authority, provision, authority to the men and the women and children of the church and because we’ve been tasked in that authority to be spiritual leaders, but we are not the best equipped to lead compared to our female counterparts the qualities for leadership are more easily found in our in our lady counterparts than in our nature.

02;38;11;01 – 02;38;38;10
John
So men must rely on the power of God and not rely on ourselves. And so that takes great faith to lead by godly authority. And so when we’re operating by faith in godly authority, then the net result is that God uses men to display His glory because he’s leading by faith that it’s clear that we are a byproduct of faith and His grace and not our natural inclinations.

02;38;38;10 – 02;39;00;28
John
And so we glorify God. We have a purpose and a place in the church and that’s to glorify God. How do we do that? By Him calling us to lead and authority structure. How do we lead? Well, we have to lead by the leading guarding of the Holy Spirit because we aren’t gifted at the nurturing and the care in the teaching and the equipping like it comes so easily, it seems, by our female counterparts.

02;39;01;03 – 02;39;25;09
John
We have to do this by the spirit. And so it’s again, it’s a very high honor to know whether we are in a structure that challenges us to be men of faith. And when we’re men of faith, we glorify God. And so we’re naturally falling into our purpose as we we slide into the slot he is provided in spiritual authority.

02;39;25;19 – 02;39;28;28
John
I know that it’s a little circular, but I hope I hope that made some sense.

02;39;29;23 – 02;39;58;15
Wendell
It did. It was great. I appreciate the help. Just one more little exclamation point when we’re doing all the things you just described the fulfillment that God provides to us as a result of our obedience and submission to Him and taking the rightful place He has given us is off the charts. You can’t find it in any physical workplace sin.

02;39;59;04 – 02;40;22;19
Wendell
None of those things, the fulfillment is deeper, and that’s the reward overall. That’s great. Good any one question or thought you’d like to make before we wrap up, and I do want to have people find out how to connect with you. So if you to give us that as well. But any final exclamation point.

02;40;23;25 – 02;40;52;28
John
I think that we can celebrate who God has called us to be as men. And I understand that manhood and the worldly concept of manhood causes a lot of pain and causes a lot of abuses because it is the corrupt nature that wants to be God and wants to control and wants all of that blood. And so as a result, there’s backlash and rightly so against it.

02;40;53;17 – 02;41;25;12
John
But we as men of God, we don’t want to be hearers of the world. To think that manhood is somehow a negative. Manhood is something that God has provided to be life givers, life protectors, and the pour into others to give our lives in servitude, in loving service to other people. And so godly manhood is to be celebrated.

02;41;25;12 – 02;41;47;12
John
It’s to be joy over. We just have to make sure we’re doing it in a Christlike way and not in a, you know, a carnal kind of way. So if we’re doing it the right way, I don’t think anybody has real reason to object if we’re giving our lives to serve others and make sure they’re provided for and protected, loved and taught, then I don’t know that there would be much backlash.

02;41;47;12 – 02;41;57;10
John
But I think if we can make sure we’re doing what God’s called us to do, represent his son well, we can really have great confidence in our godly manhood.

02;41;58;11 – 02;42;02;13
Wendell
And then, Bill, any Bill, your input on this?

02;42;02;21 – 02;42;19;24
Dale
Well, again, I think John does a great job of not only telling his men what they need to know, but leading them and showing them. And that’s that’s what a good shepherd does. And I just want to thank John for being with us. John, you’ve got some context information of somebody we’d like to maybe just connect with you or you’re open to that.

02;42;20;08 – 02;42;42;12
John
Absolutely. They can and they can go online at Legacy Christian dot org and they can see what’s going on and what we’re teaching and and who we are, what we’re all about. And if they ever want to get in touch with me, it’s really easy. It’s just Pastor John, Pastor Joe Age and Pastor John at Legacy Christian dot org.

02;42;42;20 – 02;43;10;05
John
They can email me questions, comments, snide remarks we take it all and so again Pastor John legacy Christian dot org and I’d love to hear from you guys and we we love to learn we know that there are lots of men in ministries like men’s ministry catalyst who are devoted to helping men walk in godly manhood. So I would love the collaboration.

02;43;10;05 – 02;43;25;15
John
I would love to keep learning how to how to reach men, especially men and the next and coming generations. We have to be very teachable in order to reach the next and the next in the next group. So I would love that interaction.

02;43;26;04 – 02;43;37;12
Wendell
You’re awesome. Well, this has been rich. Thank you, Pastor Dale, as always. Thank you as well. And we pray that this will impact the men of the churches. You have a chance to listen.

02;43;37;15 – 02;43;38;09
John
Blessed and in.