01;37;08;12 – 01;37;43;04
Wendell
Welcome to Act Like Men, our Men’s Leadership Podcast. This podcast is designed for pastors and men’s leaders to help them build out an engaging ministry with and to their men. We do this because every man deserves an opportunity to become an authentic, biblically based man of God. This podcast is sponsored by Men’s Ministry Catalyst, who for 41 years has been doing exactly what we just said, helping to guide churches as they build out an engaging ministry with their men.

01;37;44;03 – 01;37;56;26
Wendell
Thanks for joining everyone. My name is Wendell Martin. I’m the executive director of Men’s Minister Catalyst. It’s so great to have you here today. I also want to introduce my co-host, Dale Duty. Dale, welcome. Good to have you.

01;37;57;04 – 01;38;03;03
Dale
Good to be with you, too, Wendell. Always good to dig into these key topics in the lives of our men.

01;38;04;05 – 01;38;33;04
Wendell
Amen. Well, as I promised last session, we’re going to continue with Dr. Grassy. Topic tonight is spiritual mentoring. One of the books that he listed as one of his four favorite children. And so we’ll continue with that one today. It’s a core core piece. Just before we jump into the book, we we had a thought on what are some of the reasons for ministry success that we were talking about last time?

01;38;33;04 – 01;38;41;29
Wendell
What are some things that are vital to that And Jim had a couple of thoughts he wanted to continue on with Jim. Welcome to the podcast.

01;38;41;29 – 01;39;16;09
Jim
First of all, it’s great to be with you and Dale again. And yes, I thought about that question. I answered it from a standpoint of the things that in my house, my personal house, that needed to be put in order or that I thought about in terms of emptying self and being filled with the spirit but in terms of the ministry, if you will, the success of of 41 years of ministry how does that happen?

01;39;16;29 – 01;40;06;09
Jim
Well, first of all, it is the power of the Holy Spirit, the blessing from God, no doubt. I can tell you that based on how we started and the lack of appreciation and support by most pastors for this topic of ministry, men’s ministry, it’s is pretty tough. But then having a supportive wife, a wife that would quit her passion, which was being a nurse to become a secretary to a guy that was used to having the executive secretaries that knew what how to make my coffee even, and she’s not a secretary and but she’s done a fabulous job in having friends and board members to really hold me accountable and then donors.

01;40;06;14 – 01;40;22;17
Jim
Oh, my gosh. When I think of the amount of money in 40 years that has been donated by our our friends in the ministry, our faith partners, God bless them. And I know we will from an eternal standpoint.

01;40;24;01 – 01;40;33;15
Dale
But a great legacy all together. You know, again, looking at those friends journeying with you for these four decades, Jim, what a wonderful blessing in your life.

01;40;34;12 – 01;40;50;27
Wendell
The men and women. So tonight’s topic is spiritual mentoring comes out of the book that Jim wrote called The Spiritual Mentor, which he advocated as one of the key resources for men’s ministry catalysts. What prompted this particular resource, Jim?

01;40;52;02 – 01;41;28;13
Jim
Well, as I look back over a number of the books, I had written, discipleship and understanding what that means in terms of its essence was key. And here I look at the statistics in the church today, and I’m going somehow well, we lost our way. On one hand in Matthew, it says, I think Matthew nine Jesus pulled is disciples aside and said, Look at the field.

01;41;28;13 – 01;41;58;13
Jim
It’s right ripe with harvest. And he said, Pray for workers. And what he was saying to them is, as a metaphor, I believe there is we’ve got to pray for volunteers. The donors and supporters of friends. They help us with our ministry. And then it is with some of his last words in Matthew 28 was Go make disciples.

01;41;59;25 – 01;42;28;11
Jim
That was the essence of this ministry. That’s a great commission. Go make disciples. Right. And yet we’ve switched out in most churches where we are praying for disciples and making workers or need parking. Lot attendants are all we need to do, get this work, pancake breakfast put together with cooks, and they’re worried about workers, but they’re not worried about making disciples.

01;42;28;28 – 01;43;04;02
Jim
The the average church in America today, the average church is two new converts a year right now, men in ministry, in churches, engaged in churches, in Europe is only 5%. 5% of the church will be men. Wow. In the United States today. 61% of the pews are filled with women. Think about this. If that isn’t scary enough, inter-generationally young people today going to church with mom and dad.

01;43;04;26 – 01;43;12;20
Jim
According to Barna Research. 90% of them will walk away from church once they’re of age to get out of the house.

01;43;13;25 – 01;43;20;11
Dale
So that’s an incredible statistic. Isn’t it, Jim, that we are on a slippery slope here and we’re losing ground.

01;43;20;24 – 01;43;56;12
Jim
Exactly. And so we’ve lost the essence of the whole Christian message, and that is making disciples. In my book, the spiritual mentor Barna excuse me, not Barna the sea of great theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer said Christianity without living a living Christ is inevitably Christianity without discipleship. And Christianity without discipleship is always Christianity without Christ.

01;43;58;09 – 01;44;04;05
Wendell
Well, that’s a that is a bold statement and absolutely correct. Wow.

01;44;04;22 – 01;44;05;02
Jim
Yeah.

01;44;05;14 – 01;44;29;27
Dale
You know, this aspect of discipleship obviously is a focus that a lot of churches will say that’s what we do, just like you mentioned from Matthew to making disciples. But Jim, what are a couple key distinct things, though, between discipleship and spiritual mentoring? Give us just a little bit of a comparison or maybe even a contrast. Are those two far different are they actually closer than we think?

01;44;30;19 – 01;44;41;13
Jim
Well, then that’s a good deal. And the issue is we’ve got to do with time yeah. You’re the doorbell.

01;44;44;23 – 01;45;10;08
Dale
You know, Jim, you mentioned Matthew 28 and this whole call of Jesus to go into the world and make disciples. And I think a lot of churches will say that they are doing discipleship when they’re doing ministry to men. But Jim, give us a couple of key distinctions between discipleship and spiritual mentoring. In other words, are are they closer than we think or are they actually two distinct parts of the Christian life?

01;45;12;00 – 01;46;03;07
Jim
It’s a have mentioned the first time we had the opportunity to chat with each other that a number of my books have been based around talking about discipleship, talking about Christ’s relationship with his eight of the disciples were fishermen talking about his is the way he, I want to use the word, mentored his disciples and as I was challenged by then Thomas Nelson, who asked me to write five books in 18 months, and we looked at some topics and they said, we need a good, complete book on discipleship there’s many of them out there.

01;46;03;07 – 01;46;37;05
Jim
Bonhoeffer and, and a number of people have written some excellent works but I wanted a work that really dug deep into the essence of discipleship as we looked at it from the first century and what Christ did with His disciples. And as I thought about that in terms of modern day terms, if you will, discipleship was more than attending a church or tabernacle.

01;46;37;17 – 01;47;03;13
Jim
It was more than listening to someone who was giving them good advice or biblical material. It was walking with that person. And today, when we journey with the person like Ingalls, let’s say we we want to really become a good golfer, OK? We go take lessons and the pro often will go out with us on the course. Right.

01;47;03;28 – 01;47;32;02
Jim
And he walks with us through that process in education is very common. Use the word mentor, right? And as usually someone who is a mile or two or ten miles down the road from you as a student, as a graduate, or whatever, if you’re after your dissertation, your dissertation, and they mentor you, they guide you along the way and it’s a journey, it’s a process.

01;47;32;13 – 01;47;58;11
Jim
And too often in the modern church today, we think of it as a decision at a point in time. And then you come to church and have a nice day. We’re off to the next person. Yeah. And in a good pastor, we’ll see to it that his men are shepherd by someone who understands what mentoring, the essence of mentoring is all about.

01;47;58;24 – 01;48;01;09
Dale
What a key point I was.

01;48;01;10 – 01;48;16;00
Wendell
I was really good. There’s one phrase you mentioned. We’ll talk about a couple of them, but this one for right now in chapter three, it talks about who you are versus who’s you are. Can you talk about that a little bit?

01;48;16;18 – 01;48;54;08
Jim
Yeah, and and it really comes back to the spiritual mentor book in the very front. Right after the dedication, I quote First Corinthians 11, one, two, three. I won’t read the whole thing, but I’ll paraphrase it when Paul was saying, imitate me just as I imitate and now I praise you brethren, but remember all things. And he goes on to talk about the traditions and about the importance of Christ being the head of the church and that kind of thing.

01;48;54;20 – 01;49;27;25
Jim
And then there’s an admonishment, the man that we are to be that leader, the authority in the House. And I don’t mean that in a negative way, but that we are to to to protect and provide for and to be responsible for our families. And so I see that that essence of discipleship goes back to what I saw in reading about and praying about the first century disciples.

01;49;28;27 – 01;50;17;24
Jim
They were the word, the Greek word is status, which means you’re you’re a pupil a student in process. And that’s what the disciples were. Jesus was the rabbi, and they were the students and process as Jesus walked through the theology and the relationship and the importance of knowing him and making him known and reminding them that they are God’s and God’s children, that that who they are in terms of their work, you know, I might be a doctor or dentist or a plumber or whatever.

01;50;18;02 – 01;50;42;01
Jim
That isn’t who you are. Who you are first is a child of God. I’m always amused when Wendell introduces me. I know he’s captivated with my being in the hall of fame for hunting and fishing, and he’ll say, Jim’s a Hall of Fame fisherman and all this and this and this, and then he gets to my love of the Lord.

01;50;42;11 – 01;50;50;18
Jim
And the reality is I I’m first defined by whose I am. I’m a child of God, right?

01;50;50;25 – 01;50;51;09
Wendell
That’s right.

01;50;51;11 – 01;51;10;26
Jim
And I’m a servant of Christ. A servant of the King. That’s, that’s really the definition. That means the most to me. That’s the only one that has eternal benefit. All my trophies and plaques and whatever is in record books is good. And I’ll be dust, you know?

01;51;11;13 – 01;51;44;03
Dale
And so what a great transition point is, you know, as I think about what churches really need, they need to foster that atmosphere again, helping the men know who’s they are before they move on with that. And how do you help churches or how have you helped churches move into spiritual mentoring? How have you given them some instruction or some a guide post to kind of mark their progress on that through the years?

01;51;44;08 – 01;51;45;12
Dale
What have you found helpful?

01;51;46;02 – 01;52;14;25
Jim
Well, I think it’s helping people understand Matthew. 419. Jesus said, Come follow me and I’ll make you fishers of men. There’s three things there come. First of all, that’s from the head, having a knowledge and being drawn initially by curiosity about the Christ yeah. And then he says, Follow me. Well, that’s from the heart. That’s from the heart.

01;52;15;07 – 01;52;44;08
Jim
When you follow him, you know him first, and now you follow him. And that means trying to be like Christ. Like Paul said, you imitate me, that I, that I am and take Christ. And then the last part is the hands is I will make you fishers of men. Jesus will give us that gift and the ability to use our hands, our minds, our talents, our contacts, our networks to help build the kingdom.

01;52;45;09 – 01;52;51;08
Dale
That’s a great analogy for us and a great way to get that word picture in our in our mind.

01;52;52;02 – 01;53;10;00
Wendell
Absolutely. In Chapter nine, Jim, you mentioned and we’ll use this as our last piece of conversation here today, but you mentioned the phrase relationship based discipleship. What do you mean by that specifically? How does that relate to spiritual mentoring?

01;53;10;27 – 01;53;46;06
Jim
Well, it kind of gets back to what I said earlier about the walk the journey with someone. So let me give you a practical illustration a lot of what we recommend churches do in terms of programs or events is make them outreach oriented. So let’s say you’re having a golf tournament, but an actual experience where they can come to a driving range, meet a Christian pro, some of the people from the church that are good golfers and have a golf clinic.

01;53;46;27 – 01;54;25;03
Jim
OK, now the clinic itself, hopefully the the pro, who’s a Christian, shares his testimony and there’s maybe a moment of time there where someone gives their heart to Jesus. Hopefully it’s a bunch of people. And the key thing was important. As important as that moment is, if the Holy Spirit drew that person to make that decision is to know that the guy that maybe helped him from the church in his putting or is driving or whatever that guy follows up and walks with that guy.

01;54;25;12 – 01;54;51;06
Jim
He invites them out for coffee and writes them up to go play golf again, maybe has him over for a barbecue he keeps tabs on that guy, OK, and builds a relationship with them. And that takes, you know, not all people are easy to build a relationship with, you know, and sometimes it’s like, wow, do I really needed to be friend this guy?

01;54;51;06 – 01;55;19;05
Jim
God you know? But hey, God, God looked at us and could have said the same thing right when we were met. And yet there were people in our lives that cared enough to mentor us. And as I’ve shared with you in previous conversation that, you know, I’ve had a couple of those people in my life that helped me at a critical time that I could have gone a different path, totally different path.

01;55;19;20 – 01;55;23;27
Jim
I wouldn’t be married for 58 years if that occurred, for sure.

01;55;25;16 – 01;55;55;19
Wendell
Great answer. A great topic, by the way. Spiritual mentoring is so critical and to go back to the Matthew for 19 or the Matthew Luke for 19 to Matthew 28 where we’re called to reach out and to walk through life. You use the term relationship based discipleship to walk through life with these people is is absolutely critical. Jim thank you for sharing we’ll have you back shortly share a few other things we want to talk through a six step engagement process in depth.

01;55;56;06 – 01;56;05;16
Wendell
I’ll have you back and walk us through some of that as well. Dale it’s always a pleasure and I appreciate the privilege of working with you. What an honor to be here.

01;56;05;16 – 01;56;08;01
Dale
And be with Dr. Grassi during these sessions.

01;56;08;13 – 01;56;38;00
Wendell
Absolutely. Really is Listen, thank you listeners for joining us. You again are the reason we exist. Again, if you want anything from Dr. Grassi Communication or Resources is just venture capitalist, dot org, forward slash resources or just menstrual cycle. It’s dot org and you can find ways to get a hold of him there. That’s great. Just a reminder, our episodes are launched on the first and third Thursdays of every month.

01;56;38;11 – 01;56;58;04
Wendell
If you you’ve not yet subscribe please do so on our website. Let us know. Prior to that episode, we will release the show notes as well. Next time our topic will be mentoring. We’ll have two sessions on mentoring. You look forward to that and Dale will help walk us through that topic and looking forward to our time together.

01;56;58;04 – 01;57;09;00
Wendell
Thank you again for joining us. You are the reason we exist because every man deserves an opportunity to become an authentic, biblically based man of God.